How about this for sick hands

[Avi_drums]

Actually, you were 'lauding' musicality over physical performance, but regardless, they are different subjects.

I'm just commenting that rudimental styles require hand development several levels beyond what the best drum set players can handle.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Respectfully, you are not a sports scientist. Your subjective opinion is based on a narrow criteria. There are many factors to be considered when objectively comparing different techniques.

[zmorton]

I don't think this thread was started with the intention of debating whether or not rudimental snare drummers can play drum set or not, but rather to acknowledge the level of hand technique these guys poses in comparison to our modern drum set heroes. Good, bad, or indifferent I'd say from experiencing both drum set and rudimental snare drumming, rudimental drumming demands more from the hands than drum set; on a broad general level. In dealing with music there is always an exception.

I did DCI for eight years; was part of a world champion drum line and drum corps and all that good stuff. During that time I dabbled in drum set but after ageing out of DCI I decided to study drum set in a music degree due to the inspiration of one of my rudimental teachers. Now when I started studying drum set as seriously as I studied rudimental drumming, I soon realized how much I sucked at drum set! Not so much from a technical standpoint but from a attitude and phrasing perspective.

One thing the rudimental training did give me above my peers at school was the ability to quickly determine problems in my playing and have the technical facility to fix those problems. Basically my technique allowed me to get into the music/style much faster. I also have yet to encounter a style in my studies in which my hands couldn't keep up; from 350bpm be bop to 60bpm ballad playing. I've had to teach myself the correct attitude and approach but technique hasn't been much of a hinderance.

The two are really more different than they seem to be.

Again though, great topic.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 26, 2005 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font>

[Avi_drums]

from experiencing both drum set and rudimental snare drumming, rudimental drumming demands more from the hands than drum set; on a broad general level.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Zak, would you say you have better stick control behind a drumset than Vinnie Colaiuta?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 26, 2005 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Avi_drums ]</font>

[zmorton]

Originally posted by Avi_drums:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">from experiencing both drum set and rudimental snare drumming, rudimental drumming demands more from the hands than drum set

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Zak, would you say you have better stick control behind a drumset than Vinnie Colaiuta?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Come on now, of course not!

If your going to quote me use my entire sentence please. You left out when I stated "on a broad general level."

I'll try and make my statement even clearer. For sake of discussion lets make a parallel between a top 6 DCI corps snare drummer and a working drum set player. Both are expected to play their gig with a high level of quality. I'd still say that in my experience the DCI environment demands more hand technique than the drum set evironment. They are what they are; I'm not trying to put a value judgment on either.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ April 26, 2005 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 26, 2005 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font>

[Derek DeFields]

If Zach was in a top 6 line and kept his hands up, then I'd say yes his control would exceed Vinnie's on ONE drum. (but that's not what he's saying and who cares anyway?)

It's not like any great musician (and drum corps is about everything BUT music) is great because he has fantastic "hand control," Vinnie included.

The 2 mediums are not comparable in almost any way. DCI stuff is the weightlifting of drumming. It's a highly developed skill, some of which COULD be applied to actual music were the person so inclined. (and most in drum lines aren't)

[Henry II]

Originally posted by Vdrummer:
Here's a Grade 2 Pipe Band score I played a few years ago. This style does demand fluidity, touch and technique. It's not as demanding as a DCI part but it reflects my rudimental background. I thought you guys might like to check it out to get an idea of what we're talking about. Can anyone here passably play the top couple of lines? Oh, yeah there are lots of dynamics and it isn't slow. Obviously, this is much more demanding than the rudimental stuff like Wilcoxin, NARD, or lots of the typical teaching texts you guys may be familiar with.

There is a higher grade 1 level that plays harder material. The score's author (and my line's former instructor) currently plays alongside Jim Kilpatrick in Shott's and Dykehead Caledonia PB. There are a couple of teenagers in that band with hands that the world's best kit players could only envy. Enjoy,

http://homepage.mac.com/polyostinato/

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To me that's more of a reading challenge than a chops challenge.

[matricks]

I don't think the mediums are comparable but the techniques are. Two sticks, two hands, a playing surface... that is how and why i compare them... technique, knowing how to make the stick bounce and stuff.

[Vdrummer]

To me that's more of a reading challenge than a chops challenge.

Either you're a Grade 1 pipe band drummer or you've underestimated the control required to execute those patterns. [img]wink.gif[/img]

This is monolinear notation, with the right hand notes written above the left hand, just like in the Chapin book. It takes a bit of practice to get used to, but once you do, you can sight read difficult scores.

[Dazzler]

With regard to pipe band or drum corps drummers, I found this quote from the website of the world famous drummer and educater, Jim Blackley. (Born in Scotland and now lives in Toronto. I know countless drummers that have flown from England to study with him.)

As one who was involved in music and musical performance from a very early age, I am nonetheless thankful that I experienced various aspects of learning at a high level of understanding and performance, before being led to a life devoted to the art of jazz drumming.

From these experiences, I have found no other music or musicians anywhere who swing harder than the pipe band drummers, and the sophisticated musical lines they play in unison around the music, is second to none in musical artistry.

How you may ask, can so many drummers who are pure hobbiests, play at such a high musical level? The key lies not in the chops they have developed, but in understanding the music, and being able to sing every composition they perform. The pipe band drummer must know every nuance within the musical score, for without this, his interpretation will lack feeling, meaning and musical expression.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it follows that despite their incredible technique and facility, these drummers 'know the music' inside out. THAT'S what is important, far beyond chops and will stand any drummer in good stead, whatever the style of music or playing situation.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 26, 2005 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>

[Suspiria]

Great quote there Dazzler, I never thought of it that way.
Just to follow-up on the discussion: It seems like we are belittling the talent of these drummers because they may not be able to reproduce that talent on the full drum set. Well, they don't claim to be able to in the first place, that's maybe why they stuck with one drum. I don't know if I am being clear enough, but it seems like we are comparing apples with oranges to a certain extent.